tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post6904943310150948742..comments2024-01-21T11:18:54.087-05:00Comments on Lost in the Movies: The Dark Knight (revisited)Joel Bockohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-18712367790495907242008-09-06T14:12:00.000-04:002008-09-06T14:12:00.000-04:00Michael,Looking at the comment again I don't think...Michael,<BR/><BR/>Looking at the comment again I don't think I can really add to my response until the next Iron Man film comes out and I can recontextualize the original (if that's appropriate).<BR/><BR/>In the meantime, where are your articles/comments on Dark Knight? I'm generally tired of reading/writing about that movie, but I'd still like to hear your POV.<BR/><BR/>Thanks.Joel Bockohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-86813028798842122452008-08-31T01:22:00.000-04:002008-08-31T01:22:00.000-04:00Michael, an interesting criticism; perhaps I was t...Michael, an interesting criticism; perhaps I was too harsh in my assessment of Iron Man? Then again, I'm growing tired of nascent franchises farming out the heavy lifting to their sequels, so maybe not.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, your observations of worthy of a longer reply, so consider this a place-holder. Usually I am e-mailed when someone comments on an entry, but somehow I missed this one. File it with the rest of the Overlook, I guess...Joel Bockohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-63736166349204808372008-08-25T13:37:00.000-04:002008-08-25T13:37:00.000-04:00I've spoken with so many people and on so many sit...I've spoken with so many people and on so many sites about my distaste for TDK that I'm not going to get into it here - however, you bring up a different film that I would like to discuss.<BR/><BR/>"Iron Man" worked for me in every way that the other film did not, and I disagree with some of your points here. I wonder if I'd view it differently if I didn't know the character as well as I do, and thus understand where the character is theoretically going to be taken in the second chapter (Favreau and Downey Jr. both have confirmed their desire to bring Stark down the dark, addiction and corporate malfeasance route that Stark took in the comics).<BR/><BR/>I'd contend that it's anything but a joyride for him. The first time he flies, sure, there's a sense of giddiness to it, but the film actively punishes him every time he starts to enjoy his role too much. On that first flight, it's the reverse-Icarus cold snap, later it's an awareness that his abandonment of his own company that lets Stane get away with what he does. Stark's consistently played as a man who has to come to terms with his own hubris, because he's spent his life being destructive. While there's a certain wish-fulfillment to flying to the middle east and blowing up tanks oneself, the fact of the matter is, he's responsible for the weapons over there, and the film's message is ostensibly "clean up your mess" - there IS a pointed arrogance to this, as well, and if the studio allows the creators of the film to follow that line as they've promised, he'll be punished for this in the end, as well.<BR/><BR/>We note all kinds of complexity to the vigilante actions of someone like Batman, who performs the same actions on the smaller scale, but what Stark is doing is just substituting the muggers and serial killers for a real and more present danger. If anything, the film is a more tragic one than TDK, because as far as the Pinocchio / Tin Man allegory goes, he gets his chance at the end to work within the system to make things better (ambiguity here - SHIELD is a govt op - will that be a better choice than vigilantism? Maybe and maybe not), but instead he gets up to the podium and gleefully admits that he's the guy flying through restricted air space and causing international incidents. In the end, he's lost some of that moral battle he's been fighting since his convoy is attacked in the desert, because he once again believes that he's indestructible.<BR/><BR/>When he makes his announcement, the long-awaited Black Sabbath song plays, and the crowd eats it up - but that song doesn't describe a hero. The lyrics are about a destructive force, which is what Tony is quickly on the way to becoming.<BR/><BR/>The stinger at the end, about being recruited to The Avengers, all but implies that he's going to go down the fascist road that TDK only teased at before abandoning. Indeed, in the original source comic, Iron Man now IS a fascist, throwing superheroes in concentration camps and hunting down former friends with government backing.<BR/><BR/>In many ways, the character is the most complex that Marvel ever came up with, and while the first film by nature couldn't dwell too deeply into this (Ang Lee learned this the hard way), all of the hints are there, including the likelihood of his alcoholism. Tony's damned. It'll be interesting to see how far they take him down by the third film.Michael Petersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13973966399885176589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-44723826668380341472008-08-14T15:03:00.000-04:002008-08-14T15:03:00.000-04:00There's no doubt that "The Dark Knight" ruminates ...There's no doubt that "The Dark Knight" ruminates on its ethos more than your average superhero hero, but that doesn't necessarily make it above average. And, all the same, just because "The Dark Knight" has conversation after conversation after conversation about morals and justice doesn't make it any less present in a much worse film like "Daredevil" or an equally popular series like "Spiderman". I think if anyone goes back to look at other superhero films, they will find the same sense of dealing with justice and sense of character as you find in "The Dark Knight." "The DArk Knight" might make itself about its own ethos, but, if anything, I see that as a fault.<BR/><BR/>The politics of it seem all over the place to me, which may be a good sign in a sense of dealing with "issues" (although, again, "dealing" isn't the right term...mentioning issues may be closer to the truth.) Of course, there are terrorists that have to be stopped at any cost, and we have vigilantes chasing them with mass destruction of everything around it to beat the terrorists. Batman may be the conservative's hero, but the public is seen as a little more liberal. They have a chance to kill prisoners on a boat (they've made their choice!) but find too much kindness in their liberal hearts to push the button themselves. It's a back and forth between Batman and the public which makes the film work politically a little more, I think. Obviously, there could be other readings that work just as well (on both sides of the political spectrum) but that is my gut reaction. <BR/><BR/>Honestly though, it seemed a lot more interested in blowing stuff up than grappling with much of anything.James Hansenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09650436008918093617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-89554354896072052232008-08-14T00:57:00.000-04:002008-08-14T00:57:00.000-04:00I believe that while other superhero films flirt w...I believe that while other superhero films flirt with a set of values and morals, The Dark Knight makes itself about its own particular ethos (which I may not agree with, but hey, as Walter says, "at least it's an ethos.")<BR/><BR/>What did you think of The Dark Knight's political bent? Stay tuned - some upcoming entries will explore the similarities, in terms of mythology, politics, popularity, and an ability to tap into the public's imagination, between The Dark Knight and another, older, far more controversial film about masked vigilantes who decided to enforce their version of order to protect the public from itself.Joel Bockohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-8597373386081791962008-08-13T12:55:00.000-04:002008-08-13T12:55:00.000-04:00I appreciate your well written defense of the film...I appreciate your well written defense of the film, but what you see as the principles and ideas that make The Dark Knight very good seem standard to me. I think it is the job of every superhero to uphold a set of values and morals and throw them around the movie. Superman, Spiderman, Daredevil, and the X Men (maybe to a lesser extent) all exist a realm of good and bad where the superhero upholds all that is good and the villain upholds everything that is bad. I don't mean this as a criticism of superhero/comic book movies (I actually think most Hollywood movies stick to this kind of character writing) but it is part of what The Dark Knight feel ordinary to me. There's a lot of talk about morals, protection, and evil, but most of it are just statements to propel the next action sequence. Ledger gives the film enormous energy when he is in it, but when he isn't I think the film drags big time. Then, when Two Face becomes a factor, the moral talk becomes really overbearing...I remember a 10-15 minute segment that felt like a trailer because it was cross cutting every character making "deep" moral statements while they were getting chased down by someone else.<BR/><BR/>Again, I'm not saying all of this to decry The Dark Knight or to be contrarian to the wildly popular film. I understand its popularity, which I think is mainly due to Ledger, and see it as the big action movie of the summer. It may be a little darker and executed a little better than some other movies this summer, but when it comes down to standing out from the rest of the movies, it is only Ledger that takes the film anywhere a standard action/superhero movie normally goes.James Hansenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09650436008918093617noreply@blogger.com